GroWTF? podcast E6 – How to set goals using OKRs – with Lorenz Gräff (bsurance)

Where are we heading with our SaaS company? Setting and aligning on goals can be a challenging process.

I invited my friend, business-partner and serial-entrepreneur with multiple exits Lorenz Gräff to discuss how he’s using OKRs in this company bsurance (an insurtech company). We are discussing when and how OKRs (Objective-KeyResults) are useful for your company and what flaws we experienced so far.

To the podcast episode

The podcast will include the following topics:

  • Different goal setting systems
  • Why OKR? How do we use OKRs in our SaaS companies?
  • Why do OKRs help you to align the team, the managers.
  • Company-,Team-,Personal-OKRs
  • What are flaws of OKRs we stumbled upon and how we solved them
  • What’s a good read about OKRs

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I hope you will enjoy this episode of my podcast.


Feedback If you have any kind of feedback or suggestions, just contact me on Linkedin.


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Transcription of the podcast:

this is the grow what the [ __ ] podcast a growth podcast of hog class m

hi my name is Klaus-M. Schremser and i’m co-founder and head of growth of usersnap in the grow what the [ _ ] podcast i want to share with you the successes but more the failures and learnings from growing our b2b sas company as a co-founder and as a head of growth in the last years i was and i am still confronted with all kinds of challenges from growing our product company and our team also i want to become a successful head of growth since i joined a growth agency some years ago and this podcast should be the platform to share my experiences about what worked and what not so what is this company i’m working in usersnap is a feedback platform that helps businesses to build better more successful products and services with user feedback a bit about myself i’m a serial entrepreneur and in the last 20 plus years i co-founded three companies within the tech marketing industry two of them got acquired one by atlassian let’s start with today’s podcast but before that don’t forget to subscribe on itunes for this podcast or sign up on grow what the [ _ ] so it’s g r o w t f dot com to stay connected this will bring you seven years of good luck hi hi and welcome to this episode of the grow what the [ __ ] podcast and this today we’re talking about goal setting and OKRs’s and here with me is Lorenz Gräff an old friend an old friend business partner hi Lorenz hi thanks a lot for your time it’s great to have you here thanks for inviting me of course of course today i thought about how long do i know you and i i think i know you since four companies you built

yeah and the most of them already sold yeah so this is the time units we are talking today. it’s great that you’re here and i want first start with a short so you can give a short introduction so that the listeners and and watchers can can hear a bit about you what drives you what you’re doing currently and what brought you here to to be the founder and ceo of bsurance okay thank you so much uh yeah perhaps uh start with the introduction in introduction of myself so my name is lawrence graff i started physics um did a executive mba in my late 30s and that changed me dramatically because in that moment i learned that i want to be an entrepreneur before i was working mainly as a manager and i think this is also great when you have both experiences because ocar does have a lot to do with execution which is more or less on the manager side but it covers also a lot of entrepreneurial issues that you’re facing and therefore felt in love in a a couple of years ago with with with our car with the ogre process uh in the moment i’m running uh i’m building together with two co-founders presurance which is an insurtech where the company is built here in austria in vienna and we are now roughly a team of 30 people spread over europe and we’re building an embedded insurance distribution platform so we like to add value to the insurance industry which definitely needs a lot of new value because it’s a very old-fashioned industry and digitalization uh didn’t happen there up to now yeah so far so good that’s that’s great so what i understood is you bring some technical fun to the boring insurance industry that’s true that’s true we have it we try to uh let’s let’s say build it or one part of the solution is a technical solution but it’s also a customer driven approach and it’s a product driven approach so it’s not only the technical stuff so apis and so on it’s more or less a 360 degree solution for we believe in distribution of insurance should be changed yeah right more cost uh cost efficient efficient yeah okay that’s great that’s great well i mean we belong we know each other since long time and and i always love to to go like most of the time go running with you and talking about entrepreneurial issues and uh i was also happy like last year we kind of had a lot of chats about okrs and goal setting and i think both of us because i remember you maybe you can remember the one time we were in the in this cafe and you you made your person you created your personal goals in the mind map yeah and this is where i whereas i knew that we are kind of you know brothers in in by by by heart in in this area because i also love personal goal setting and then of course i transformed that and into uh goal setting for my businesses so that’s that’s great uh lauren so let’s start into uh let’s get the gears up into goal setting and okrs and my question would be like how important do you think is goal setting overall for a business and the company and the team and and your company and currently i would say that we are talking first i mean our companies are like around below 100 people let’s say yeah so also to give some context uh in which size we’re talking but yeah how important is goal setting for you and for your business or company um i started as a preparation uh to think about that question uh and i think it’s it’s heavily depending on the uh on the maturity of the company yeah so the first time uh i was getting in contact with this goal setting processes was more or less in a let’s say in a typical sme world company 100 people management per objective so we did a lot of goal setting and bonus payout and so on and i was always a bit frustrated because my understanding of this standard or this old-fashioned target processes is that the people always try to cheat with the targets yeah so either you give them targets which they don’t achieve then they are very frustrated and sooner than late that they will quit or they set their goals on their own and typically they tend to set the goals in a way that it’s that they can achieve them yeah which is not the 100 percent you re you should aim for it’s just the 50 there and therefore and i i understand why this is a problem here because it’s mainly a problem because cache components abound to the target process the first time i learned later in in my first startup which was a other software company called e-recruiter we use their different kind of processes fourth dimension but all the enforced dimensions somehow the the cash component is not directly bound to the target process and i learned how much power that is yeah so that the people can choose their targets and there’s a different way of how they get compensation when they when they hit the targets but it’s not directly bound to you need to sell 100 pieces and if you sell 80 pieces you get 80 because what typically happened to people says okay i just want to sell 80 and i get 100 of my bonus so i learned okay to separate these two things is quite important yeah and i’ve seen also there uh at that company how how much power you can uh you can how to say that the people are developing because they they feel that they are responsible for targeting set for target settings and that they can interact how the targets should be set and that’s typically when you have the let’s say a high quality team there’s a good people which are working together they typically tend to to give them higher targets than you would normally set to them absolutely somehow this is developing in a culture that the people really work hard to achieve something and i found find it very interesting because when you’re doing that you are also more happy with the work and i think this is very important culture of let’s say of performance and also a culture of happiness so that you love to go to work and being self independent somehow yeah is very important that you get more happy at the work and so in the end everybody is working as a self uh well let’s say as an entrepreneur yeah on this micro level but uh that’s the reason why for example i i wanted to be entrepreneur i wanted to have the absolute freedom i don’t want that people telling me what i have to do so and uh but the the problem with that kind of process was this fourth dimension uh it’s quite open but there’s a a very focused way how to to do it so there is a plan and you have to follow the plan and that fits perfectly if the company is 20 30 40 people or 100 of the million people but it’s not so good if he has more copper of people and so therefore they said okay the idea behind i’m very powerful but somehow you need a different process and that was the reason why i started to read books and this is also something where i have to be doing posts so we we have i think meters of business books and they’re instantly run into oh car yeah megabytes have megabytes of books yeah okay i have even had so look here this is harder and uh and said okay that sounds very promising and then uh looked also that the good videos available and i said okay this seems to be the standard in in in in the world of startups and why do i think this is important and i think it’s important to have such a process on every stage of a startup but you perhaps have to adopt the process yeah and i think it’s important because uh you you can generate a lot of power out of the people yeah with the same effort so that means the investment is the same effort but you produce much more power when everybody’s does understand where the journey is going yeah and everybody who’s who is a business leader knows exa how important communication is and communication is mainly that the main main driving force to give the people the understanding where is the target what is the journey yeah but the problem with when you’re just communicating it it’s every decision is coming back to you so this is just like you’re talking to someone says okay we’re going hiking yeah we’re going to that mountain uh and then on the first uh uh how to say the first uh uh

you have to go left and the second right and so on and so on yeah you can do it yeah but you have a lot to do because you have to either you’re planted totally which is from a economic perspective not always possible uh or you have to communicate the whole time the other uh the other approach would be more or less the oka approach yeah you give them the gps connect gps where they want to go where they have to go and then you say okay take the compass and go there yeah yeah the important thing is you they need to know the gps uh coordinates where they have to go and this is uh doing okay is more or less setting the gps coordinates give them everything they need earth or the compass and whatever is else is needed that they can take their own journey yeah and the most important the most important thing is that the target of the journey everybody felt in love with

that’s great that’s great i like i like that i liked it a lot so what i understood and i i can highly relate to that is that you’re kind of giving everyone from the team who is maybe like everyone becomes kind of a mini entrepreneur because they have a freedom and it’s not connected to the cash component i think this is a very true and and good point uh because otherwise it always like brings them into the into the the let’s say the the conflict with themselves the conflict of it’s a conflict of interest

that’s true the second one you know you generate more power out of the same inputs let’s say because the everyone knows where the journey goes and and then to know the gps coordinates i like that example and and you either you give them the right tools they need or they start thinking about themselves how do they get there what do i need what equipment do i have to pack in and i think that’s the the power of okrs and i can totally relate to that um so for me i mean for my personal life as i said it’s also it was always important to have these goals because i for me i had this saying and this was like you don’t know when you are there if you don’t know where you’re heading um and this was helped me or um to it makes decisions easier because you know okay red right right right or left and if if left goes to the mountain and right goes to the lake and we said we’re climbing or hiking the mountain then i don’t have to think about this decision anymore and it’s easier to decide so this is what one thing i took also from personal life into the company and um one one thing i’m i learned in our company and we had some issues on that in the beginning because i think when i started in usersnap uh we had already of course there were teams um but they were kind of separated and there was not a lot of cross-functional uh collaboration typically for companies in the size of 25 yeah exactly exactly yeah but but then somehow you know and what you said they we didn’t know exactly where the journey is going and then uh and it was not in the hands of the of the of the teams it was like from top down and which doesn’t feel like their own this is also important so the people also kind of were in the process maybe part of this process um establishing the the goals and then it’s it’s their own and then they way more like put way more effort into that at least this is my experience and and we had a lot of troubles in the beginning you know communication was not aligned the product offering was or the product development came something different out then the marketing was saying um there was like a fence it felt like a invisible fence somehow and then we started this opr process in the beginning we had a lot of issues um i can remember

and and this kind of just to add one more thing to that was it helped us also align cross-functional cross teams uh across teams um to to go together and to understand where we’re heading and and how everyone can contribute from different teams although as you know each team has their own little environment and processes but the goals are kind of over that overall and kind of a a clear channel above everyone um where so they know where where to go that’s great so let’s jump into another question i mean you already talked about okrs uh you quality also gave us the history a bit like that you use different tools and different so from fourth dimension or mbo to is it management by objectives yeah if i recall that right and okrs kind of was the the the one which you’re stuck at least for now and it feels like this is the most promising one but can you give us a bit more specific examples or stories how okrs currently work in your company and how they help your company right now yeah i just want to add something to your uh experience that it helped to get the teams together yeah i have even the experience that it helps to to to focus the founder’s mission because we are a couple of founders so we have three three founders and let’s say one co-founders of people of four who are really driving the company yeah and everybody has a different opinion uh in which direction uh the company should go and discussing the okaz helps us a lot to to get a clearer vision for for all of us and this is very i think this is also a very big achievement because when you have a splitted brain in that level right the split brain goes down to everyone yeah so this is very helpful so how we are using our cars and we are really i have one additional question if i may interrupt you because we haven’t clearly we haven’t clearly explained to the audience right now to our listeners and watchers how okr’s like work very basic level just that someone if someone is not familiar with okrs that they understand how it works that would be great do you want to do it or should i no no please explain it with your stories on on how you’re using right now okay stands for objectives and key results and i will introduce you how we are using it and we we’re using it since day one yeah and as i said the usage of ocr has changed because in the beginning we were a team of five and now we are 30 people crossover europe and that also meant we have to adapt the process and so we went through a couple of steps so the first that that the main concept is you start with the objective and objective you always have to think it’s like a light house so this is something perhaps you can’t even achieve it yeah but it’s big enough that everybody feels attracted and as we have mentioned so this is the gps coordinate so you know okay i have to go in that direction yeah and but it’s not measurable it’s just something it shows you the direction and it’s something you fell in love to uh to get into the direction and the second thing is the q result and the q result is more or less the thing that helps you to get a step nearer to the to the objective and the key results they should be measurable they could be digital that means yes achieved no not achieved or it could be linear that means 80 percent 120 percent 40 whatever and the key result uh should typically so this is how we use it should typically be something which could be overachieved yeah so we we we say let’s let’s hit p that’s the key result should be set to if everything went well you achieve 50 percent yeah if you have a total cool run you have perhaps 80 percent or you even have more than 100 yeah but you don’t have to be in a bad mood when you just hit 50 so this is more or less and also sometimes we take the chance to to set big and hairy goals that means something you won’t believe yeah you could hit yeah but you said it in a way that’s okay this is something we want to achieve in three years so this is for example a million users in a moment we have twenty thousand uh how how do we go there yeah and then we split it yeah into smaller portions and set the goals uh so that the the key results in the direction uh we have to achieve so and so that the the main construct is easy yeah objective key results typically you say not more than five objectives for a company and not more than three key results for objective we played around a bit yeah yes i would underwrite that rule sometimes more key results less key results but overall and this the funnest thing is for us and we are we are company who’s has more or less three teams yeah one team is the the digitalization expert so that the id guys then we have an insurance team and then we have a team yeah so i’m overhead ceo he’s always overhead doesn’t produce anything but it costs a lot of money uh good so but the funny thing is five objectives for the whole company is working great for us yeah so i’ve never run into the problem uh that they need more than five right because the the important thing is the discussion before so what is really what are the five important ones

and then the question is how often do you refresh the targets because objectives and key result is always about focus that means throwing away something you don’t need anymore is the way you should go yeah because you learned something you for example you focused on something you learned something and in the end you realized okay we learned the lesson but it doesn’t make sense to use it anymore just throw it away that’s fine don’t look back and be an angel anger that you didn’t know that uh half a year ago that’s the reason why you did it you learned it uh so somehow you need also dynamic in the process and how we do it we set typically we set a yearly goal yeah so we have an accompanying level we have yearly goals and then we break it down to quarterly goals yeah and we review it in a review process the process is runs once a month that means once a month we look into the quarterly targets objectives and key results and how we are how far we are yeah where do we where are we on the water and where we are doing great and we do it in the whole team that means that’s one and a half hours for the company goals uh each month and then we have a quarterly session where we review and prepare the next quarter and uh in the end of the year we look back what was the original plan where did we where did we go where where did we hit what did we learn because learning is always great and looking back and it’s always interesting uh what was in january and what is the reality in december uh yeah so this is the standard process more or less and you see it in the literature everybody is doing it but many companies are doing it like that i have a short question in between because you said that okay you have like you’re going from annual goals and we’re talking about about goals i want to be a bit more specific because i want to understand objectives and key results so you have yearly objectives and key results yeah okay okay not more than five not more than five and then we break down and with the breakdown come back to the to the customer uh number yeah so for example we say uh a million customers a year that means 250k in the quarter that means we’re focusing in q1 on 250 new customers in q2 and or if it’s not linear we focus on 200 and then 300 or whatever yeah so that means we break it down because uh uh in the end we want to achieve 1 million but we really want to to already have a plan how we can go there so what needs to be done because the focus is shifting yeah because if i need to get the first 100 000 customers i need different things to do then everything is already going yeah and i need just to spend more money on marketing and then i get from one hundred thousand to four hundred thousand yeah but is it is it right did i understand it right that let’s say the objective would be increase the customer base or the user base and the key result is reach 1 million and then in the first quarter this is the annual one and in the first quarter you have the same objective so you say increase the customer user base and in reach 250. yeah so would you choose yeah i wouldn’t choose the objective because this is something which doesn’t uh fail in love with i would say we want to have the best product and having the best product means many happy customers and so so this is the thing the way i i think but i think this is highly personal yeah and it’s like ultra cultural questions or team cultures

yeah this is this is kind of uh something we struggled quite some time and we changed it also to this mode um after we had some conversations because in the previous time when we started we set the objectives every quarter uh like we restarted setting the objectives and that gave us kind of the problem that some initiatives took longer or it took longer that something changed and we haven’t had the time we have always the feeling okay now it’s a new quarter we have to start something new and that kind of brought gave us no uh no how should i say like that that it’s clear and and linearly working and then you can change when you have a clear decision but that always it felt okay the the you know the the scent how you say the send watch is like time or stop yeah i think sometimes you have to trick a bit yeah because in reality when you when you what does it why are companies great yeah typically you can bring it down to five points yeah it’s so my this is my personal opinion i think a it’s the people yeah right team yeah b it’s impact yeah that means you have a product or a service which adds massively value to co to your customers and then three you need money yeah because to get there you need somehow money yeah and for is perhaps long term yeah so having a great product is fine but looking at apple they don’t have one product now they have 20 products and there was a brand behind it and so this is more or less so the long term uh success of a company needs also to be taking consideration and needs somehow typical effort which is in the in the quadrant of very important but not very urgent which we typically tend not to do yeah but this is something okay helps you focusing on the things which are important yeah

but maybe i can jump in with a bit of our story and it’s interesting what you think about that uh part of it you already heard but we will redo the discussion about it here so so when we started as i said like we we set up the objectives and we we changed it because we switched them quarterly and that was not good so now they’re more consistent and they stay as long as as they are here and if they are not useful for us then they are ready to go so this is currently how we go yes exactly we also have five we have also five and maximum of three uh key results currently we’re working more like one key result for okay for each and we’re thinking about reducing the five but but so we also wrote down a playbook because it was kind of a very intense uh so we had four big meetings we have seven peoples in the okr team now we reduced it to four and and they’re switching every quarter but we started with seven people and um then we so we had the objectives and then based on the objectives when we aligned on that the next meeting was about key results then we set the key results aligning them also to our at least two-year goal um and then an interesting part came which um we had the idea why not also a line on kurt on at least a certain list or a certain list of of um of initiatives we could do okay because key results i mean driving the the customer base or user base in your case to 250 000 um yes but how yeah and then how if you want to work cross-functional otherwise the marketing team or or sales team goes back into their own room and then discussing and then it’s not so fruitful you know the there is more uh there could be i think it could be like more and energizing for the whole company and at the end more maybe more successful um if everyone works on that so what we did is like we came up with a list of initiatives and put them already to this at least pin them not you know there are candidates yeah and and we decided then how to prioritize them and we brought already a list on that that kind of helped us okay um so we could align between the teams but on the other hand it was also sometimes a bit fast you know in the moment of the working and then okay we have to bring this list and then we come up with a list and sometimes the bits the numbers were missing and some fun you know foundation i’m not 100 sure if we should keep that or should change that okay um yeah i think that’s the problem how do you do that how do you find the right initiatives afterwards so what we what i didn’t mention up to now is we just talked about talked about the company level but we drilled down further and we drilled down and that we introduced that that we as we have hit the size of 15 16 people because up to now it was fine one list everybody knew everything happy yeah and this is the typical way when you’re over 15 20 people this goes away yeah and this as you went into uh your company it was already in that size and therefore i would assume you had that kind of problems as you introduced or car and what we said okay first of all there must be the company level which is the total guidance for everybody and i think it’s also very important that everybody understands yeah whatever he’s doing here what the company targets are yeah because i haven’t met daily work 20 decisions each day and if i don’t understand what we really want to achieve it’s very hard yeah either i ask someone who knows it which i don’t want because everybody should work self-empowered as as much as possible or he makes decisions on the wrong information base and that means you somehow then have to uh put him back they say come on that’s the wrong direction going to that right direction yeah which is also not very fruitful for both of us yeah the manager and uh the one who’s doing it so therefore i said okay company goals are very important but we need somehow to to go at in the team level yeah and do the same what we’re doing at the company level or on the team river and we introduce that that means we do have now two sessions one session as i already mentioned is the company session and the second session and we split it in the beginning so until i think last uh october or november somewhere we did it in one session and it ended up being a fully monster session three hours everybody out of this three hours i was speaking two hours which is when you do it via video really exhausting and we had to do it always via video because the team is bleeded over europe yeah so we there was no real life meetings where everybody was sitting with breakfast so we really had to do it while we do and uh didn’t work and we got also the feedback and uh fully understood that this is not the way we should do it and then we decided okay let’s split it yeah and we do it the first tuesday in demand system company session second tuesday is the in the months is the team session and the team session is done together that means the preparations of the teams are doing on their own but we’re coming together in a session which is again roughly 90 minutes yeah where the teams present to each other team what they are focusing on because this is exactly i think where we produce a lot of value out of it because understanding what the others are doing uh that that we can reach that company goals is very important because then everybody can understand okay how can i help them that they achieve their goals yeah and so this was more or less there to to to give everybody really let’s say very operational possibilities uh to to use okar in their daily life yeah or in the typical work life and the second thing what we introduced uh and we are still running that and i don’t know how long we can run it but in the moment we are doing it it’s a 30-minute session once a week all the while we do where everybody is this is more or less we call it the weekly or car yeah this is where everybody is telling what the most important key result he’s working on this week the next five business days so we’re doing that also on tuesday and that is so more or less on the micro level because the neighbor we get a good understanding what the focus work of the people is yeah and if you need someone else you can mention it so i’m doing that and i would need help from the insurance guys oh i’m doing that and i need lawrence i need more money or whatever yeah so this is yeah this is very operational it takes 30 minutes and i’m all i’m really proud yeah we are sometimes 25 people and we are time boxing it to 30 minutes uh and yeah it’s it’s working and what we’re doing is focus on the week so we focus on the week so the first step is feedback from the last week so what was my goal how did i reach it yeah so eighty percent sixty percent zero i didn’t set time i had to switch my goal whatever yeah even that is allowed and then the next 30 seconds what is the goal for this week and the good thing is everybody understands what we are doing what is the focus work because there’s a lot of other work which is not mentioned here so this shouldn’t be something where i’m doing that that that that so this is not the idea that is what is my focus

that’s great lawrence so i i will quickly rephrase what i understood because this it seems also you’re very near to the to the general uh to the general process how ocrs were uh like set up when when like jonder i think he he got from from andy grow andy grove from intel this yeah

exactly so yeah so he said okay i understood from you that there is uh everyone should understand their company goals so there are the opr’s objectives and key results on a company level so that helps you understand the company’s goals then you break them down like teams teams come um and have their own initiatives set in into objectives you know what they are planning to do to reach their okr’s goals on the higher level and so that you’re also reaching personal level which is important so everyone what does everyone contribute to the team and then next step to the company um you have a weekly to time box meeting yeah to to align and see what they’re doing on an operational level but in an okr form and that’s i think perfectly to the process we’re currently not there yet so we’re more on the company level and the rest is more in initiatives it took us let’s say i think we introduced it after year yeah because after a year we’ve been seven eight people and summer until that everybody knew what the others are doing here because mainly you’re sitting in a room yeah in a co-working space and you get the understanding what everybody’s doing then we somehow had the feeling okay this information i don’t know what he’s doing i don’t know what he’s doing and i said okay but it’s not really needed yeah but days somehow the feeling of the people that they connected you need to to give them that the feeling that they are still even if they’re 10 or 20 or 30 or 50 people yeah let’s see what we’re doing when we’re 100 i think we have to change that then somehow uh that there feel okay we are doing this together and i understand what he’s doing and what she’s doing so it’s not from from a manager point of view as a manager wouldn’t need that yeah because there’s no need for a manager but it’s it’s needed for the team and somehow to to make these connections in between the teams yeah okay that’s great lawrence as we’re slowly coming to an end um thanks a lot for that yeah 30 minutes and we are over the 30 minutes is going quite fast especially when the content is interesting and exciting um so for me the part would be uh like do you have any recommendations you already hold up a book so you have any recommendations uh what you should read our so our podcast listeners will not see the book so that’s not recommending it so there is one bible and it’s really a bible it’s a measure what matters from chunder i highly recommend it yeah it was for me as i mentioned i did already some other targeting processes it was really fully understandable by oh cars better for a startup perspective don’t say for every company but for startups why it is really better for startups yeah and then i have something which is not so famous but i think it’s also a great one it’s called objective and key results leadership yeah because what is really the most important part of rolling it out is uh i think the founders should understand the concept and should stay behind it but the next level is that everybody who’s leading other people is fully aligned and fully understands what ocarina is and therefore this leadership book which is from duck gray is great because it gives you good introduction on how to roll that out to a big organization which is sometimes always a problem

totally get that so before i do a small summary uh is there anything you want to add which we haven’t covered which is i’m always thinking about the flaws

i think there is a scaling flow and then we will hit that later somewhere between 50 to 100 uh so we plan to be 50 in the end of this year so but perhaps we need it but in the moment we are quite happy and we get good feedback uh and what i always recommend is that you do a full feedback loop on the process so typically we do it every six months so that we can get back to everyone and uh give them uh the opportunity that they can can add value and say okay we need to change that or what needs to be changed or how are you feeling in the process and so on because in the end it’s just a process which should help everybody yeah and it doesn’t make sense that you plan a process which doesn’t add value to the people who should receive value out of it yeah so but this is general management there try to i totally get that and and it’s great that you’re mentioning the flaws you can have from okrs it feels a bit you know there we are all like all companies are like living organisms and when you think just to take an example which you probably can rely to is if you’re uh doing yoga and not for everybody every exercise is working in the same way and you have to find your own strategies how how it works out and this is i think best done uh in doing also i can fully agree to do retros on a regular basis and go into the team ask them for feedback and and understand okay what is working well and sometimes you believe it works well and maybe they don’t think so and you have to address that otherwise you won’t get the full buy-in and that’s uh something which could keep you from yeah from succeeding although you maybe did everything right on the process perspective so totally into that yeah that’s great so ratios are important okay so let’s quickly sum up um so we learned i think today about okrs as goal settings you gave me a good um example of that it enables everyone every team colleague to become a mini entrepreneur and and tells them where the journey is going um i think it also aligns across teams cross-functional that helps you in a great way on that also the the management team is aligned so on every on every level it helps you in an alignment you know in which direction you know which mountain you want to hike and um within that there is different levels you can like break it down basically it works good to have less maximum of five maybe three key results on the annual basis but you break it then down to probably quarterly and and also not only on a period time period you break it down but also on the team level so you have company or team level on a company perspective breaking down to teams and then to personal okrs that’s great lawrence thanks a lot on that end and yeah for everybody um who listened there is uh on the websites so grow what the you will find some references links also the book lawrence is mentioning if you have any kind of feedback to the uh to this podcast or to the general podcast i would be happy to hear from you um if you have any topic which you want to suggest i’m here please send it to me and thanks a lot for listening please don’t forget to subscribe to the uh growth grow what the [ __ ] podcast of hg klaus m thanks for listening and have a wonderful day bye bye bye bye thank you for having me

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